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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2008 10:25 pm 
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Just talked to our "割禾青 Demo speed man", I think I made a mistake on the interpretation of the wind speed measurement.

5.F.16. Interruptions: A round in progress must temporarily be interrupted if:-
a) the wind speed constantly is below 3 m/sec or more than 25 m/sec.
b) the direction of the wind constantly deviates more than 45O from a line perpendicular to the main direction of the speed course.
If these conditions arise during the flight the competitor is entitled to a re-flight.
A round in progress is to be cancelled if:
a) the interruption lasts more than thirty minutes;
b) fewer than 50% of the competitors have been able to perform the task caused by marginal conditions. Without the condition "constantly" (i.e. 20 seconds) have been met and thus caused re-flights
.

So it is "constantly" but not an average. This means if the wind speed is out of the limits continuously for 20 seconds the pilot can request for a reflight.


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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2008 11:21 pm 
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If view of this new development, I think we should re-write the rules governing re-flight as:



"Only the CD has the sole power to approve and announce a re-flight due to poor wind speed, judge errors, or other circumstances. The assistant CD should monitor the wind condition constantly. If the wind condition is beyond limits during flight, CD should issue an option for the pilot concerned to abort. The pilot can choose to abort or continue, he is entitled to have a re-flight no matter his run is successfully completed or not.
In any case, an approved re-flight should be executed at the end of the current round. Helpers, onlookers and other pilots not on the stage must keep quiet during a pilot's run in order to minimize disturbance to the contesting pilot. CD has the power to expel or disqualify anyone who breaks this regulation after giving repeat warnings."


Last edited by Stanley on 10 Jan 2008 04:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2008 02:16 pm 
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Hi all,

To refine the rules further, I have a deeper thinking on last year arrangement.
In the last year league, we used the scores of the best 6 races to generate the ranking list while we have held a total of 9 races. It seems ok, but if you look at the ranking list carefully, you will see that if a pilot has obtained a full six 1000 points, there is no way other pilots can catch up even if more race (maximum 12) are held. For example, you see Mak got five 1000 points and one 995 points with a total of 5,995 points, there is almost no way we can catch up even 12 races were held.

I think the best arrangement for discard is very similar to the discard arrangement for F3F rounds, i.e., no discard below four rounds, one discard above four. However, this approach has problem also if it is applied directly here for the league races. The problem is practically; some pilots may not be able to attend all races for the reason of clashes with personal schedule , so if we only allow one discard, that may be too strengthen.

Therefore, to solve both problems, I would rather propose to have an incremental approach as:

1 – 3 races no discard
4 – 6 races 1 discard
7 – 9 races 2 discards
10 – 12 races 3 discards

Please provide comments or other suggestions for discussion. I hope we can come out with a better arrangement to suit everybody before the start of the league.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2008 02:48 pm 

Joined: 02 Aug 2004 11:34 am
Posts: 309
Instead of an incremental approach, I'll suggest to take a percentage on number (in round down to integer) of races held for the league of that year. Say 70%.
e.g. if 10 races can finally be held/run in that year, 10 x 70% = 7 races.
The best 7 races of each the pilots participated will be counted for their total score.

If 8 races can be held, a round down (8 x 70%) = 5 best races be counted.

If only 1 race is completed, no discard.


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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2008 03:47 pm 
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Hi Allan,

I worked out the details for your proposal

Total Race, Counted Race, Discard
1, 0, 1
2, 1, 1
3, 2, 1
4, 2, 2
5, 3, 2
6, 4, 2
7, 4, 3
8, 5, 3
9, 6, 3
10, 7, 3
11, 7, 4
12, 8, 4

I think there is problem with the first entry. There may be too much discards for entries 2, 3 and 4.
So I think the incremental approach I proposed is a bit easier to remember and make more sense. More comments please.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 12:47 am 
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Stanley,

My suggestion is to keep the best 6 scores system. It's so simple and effective.

I'm not saying I'll get many wins again in the coming year, but if a pilot is doing so good in getting 6 1000 points, what's wrong to let him be the winner ?
It was our aim to select the best pilots for oversea compitition. Wasn't it ?


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 12:54 am 
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CM,

WELL DONE :D

Thank you for getting the project moving.

In order to make it the best F3f timing device, you can add a pair of switches to detect wind direction as well.
Whenever wind is more than 45 degrees to the slope, the timmer will record that along with the wind speed, so that either wind speed or wind direction is off limit, the pilot will have an option to re-flight. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 01:00 am 
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Hi Mak,

I have a compass IC ordered a few years ago. It can detect the magnetic field of the Earth to more than 1 deg resolution. We can use it to find the wind direction.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 10:17 am 

Joined: 02 Aug 2004 11:34 am
Posts: 309
[quote="K.Y.Mak"]Stanley,

My suggestion is to keep the best 6 scores system. It's so simple and effective.

quote]
Different pilots may have different attitude to the league. Some may take it serious to be winners and the glory to qualify for international race. Guys on these aspects should be rewarded. Especially, for those with flying skill, dedicated with effort, time & money.
For those just doing the event as hobby, they should not be deprived from the qualifying race by imposing less flexibility to them. Some discards on race should be allowed to make the environment more competitive.
For those, like me, that cannot show a 100% attendance to every race will be a regret if there could only be 6 races successfully run out of the planned 12 races, especially for the race days that I can be available but turned out to be cancelled/aborted mid-way due to poor flying conditions.

I'll support either the % or the incremental discard approach but not a fix for 6 races though it seems to be grand (50% out of 12 planned races) and simple.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 11:40 am 
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The suggestion to use an incremental discard method is to make the league more interesting. If you think this carefully, you will find there are two advantages:

1. If a guy who has achieved six 1000 points in the first 6 races, he will definitely be a winner even though there are still 6 races to hold. Other pilots may loose the interest to fight back
2. Frankly speaking, if there are few guys who have six 99x points out of 12 races, this is quite common as in the case of Kin, Angus and Pong, their final marks will all be lumped to near 59xx point and very close for being able to distinguish the ranking meaningfully.

I don't see the incremental approach complex, as it will only be a small modification in the excel program for computing the ranking, there is no change of any rules or procedures that the pilots need to adapt or aware of.

Can other pilots give comments?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 11:56 am 
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BigYeung wrote:
K.Y.Mak wrote:
Stanley,

My suggestion is to keep the best 6 scores system. It's so simple and effective.

quote]
For those, like me, that cannot show a 100% attendance to every race will be a regret if there could only be 6 races successfully run out of the planned 12 races, especially for the race days that I can be available but turned out to be cancelled/aborted mid-way due to poor flying conditions.

I'll support either the % or the incremental discard approach but not a fix for 6 races though it seems to be grand (50% out of 12 planned races) and simple.


Hi BigYeung,

Why we opt for 6 races out of 12? It's because we expected some pilot may not be able to fly on all of the races. so, missing a few races will not be disaster to the final results.
In fact, I'll not be able to attend our first F3F race in the coming sunday. :(

another simple score system is the normal F3F system. starting from the 4th race, it's (n-1).
but that will be even more demanding on attandence.

So, I think (n out of 12) is the best balance between simplcity and attendence requirement.

I don't mind it's "6 out of 12" or "4 out of 12", but please keep it simple.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 12:53 pm 
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Stanley wrote:
Other pilots may loose the interest to fight back


Stanley,

Have a look at the ranking table
http://www.hkrcss.org/F3FGroup/Photos/L ... 071007.JPG
Last year, we have 3 discards.
but no matter it was 1,2,3,4 or even 5 discards, the winner was still the winner.

If we try to modify the rules to a point, where a pilot with good results to loss in the race after some specail calculations. It will not be a fair system any more. :?

In order to make it more interesting.
We can reduce the number to 4 rounds out of 12.
However, there will easily be double winners. In order to fix this problem. If there are pilots with the same marks, their 5th highest round will be counted. :o


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 02:16 pm 
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K.Y.Mak wrote:
Stanley,

Have a look at the ranking table
http://www.hkrcss.org/F3FGroup/Photos/L ... 071007.JPG
Last year, we have 3 discards.
but no matter it was 1,2,3,4 or even 5 discards, the winner was still the winner.

Of course, this is ok, because we have 9 races and 3 discards. What happen if we do not have cancelled race and hold all 12 races, the last 3 races will be quite boring for some pilots, because they know they have no chance to get to the top even though they got all 1000 points in the later races!

K.Y.Mak wrote:
If we try to modify the rules to a point, where a pilot with good results to loss in the race after some specail calculations. It will not be a fair system any more. :?

I can't see your logic to argue on this. Provide that we don't change the calculation rules in the middle of the league, we are all equal and fair.

K.Y.Mak wrote:
In order to make it more interesting.
We can reduce the number to 4 rounds out of 12.
However, there will easily be double winners. In order to fix this problem. If there are pilots with the same marks, their 5th highest round will be counted. :o


Your suggestion in here is exactly what the incremental approach wants to do. When we get more races, say 12, we should count more in order to distinguish the ranking instead of fixing this at 6.

Please think it more carefully looking at the positive side of this approach.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 02:22 pm 
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CM Cheng wrote:
Hi Mak,

I have a compass IC ordered a few years ago. It can detect the magnetic field of the Earth to more than 1 deg resolution. We can use it to find the wind direction.


Hi CM,

I think your compass IC is silmilar to the one inside my 76CSx GPS.
The ic can only tell it's own direction, which mean the ic have to be fited to the rotating arm of the "風向儀". which require wire or wireless connection to the main timer unit.

Being able to tell the difference to 1 deg is not important to us. As long as it can tell when wind direction had reached 45 deg will be OK. This can be done with 2 micro switches on each side of the free swinging arm of the "風向儀".

However, if you found it more interesting to use Hi Tech stuff on the project. it's fine :)

enjoy the project :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 03:25 pm 
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stanley,

You said in your message: When a pilot get 6000 points, the others will have no chance of winning.
It sounds like you want to adjust the rules to make the guy with 6000 points to loss out in the race, hence creating a chance for the others to win.

I can't imagine when "劉祥" runs too fast on the track, and the other runners can't catch up with him. The organizer would have changed the rule, so that the others have a chance to win ?

Anyway, I can't see the results would have changed unless less discards were inforced, (and there must be more successful races in that year)
This is exactly opposit to BigYeung's idea, where he wants more discards to make sure low attendance rate to not affect the results.

Stanley,
We cannot guarantee all pilots have a chance to win in the league on every race.

If you can adjust the rules for the first few pilots, then how about those at the end of the score sheet ?

I agree with BigYeung in trying to make the race more interesting, but I don't think it should affect the selection of top pilots.
How about adding an "Advancement Award" for the pilot who jump up the most on the score sheet ?

This is the start of the league. You, Angus, Kin or any pilot, can be the guy with many 1000 points.
Sadly, I will get a zero for missing the first race.
Whatever the outcome of the rules.
Doesn't matter I have a chance to win or not. I'll enjoy every one of the races.
I'll do my best to catch up with you guys, right up to the end of the league.

OK. Be happy :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 03:27 pm 
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Hi Mak,

Yes, it needs to be installed on the vane and use wireless link to report the data.

Can you help to vacuum bag the vane?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 04:01 pm 
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Stanley wrote:
. . . .Of course, this is ok, because we have 9 races and 3 discards. What happen if we do not have cancelled race and hold all 12 races, the last 3 races will be quite boring for some pilots, because they know they have no chance to get to the top even though they got all 1000 points in the later races!


I have no preference to any scoring system. After all, the best is still the best.

But if one lost the interest once he found that cannot be the No.1. in the league, sorry, I think he has no sportsmanship. I don't think we need to change the rules for him.
I can't win you guys, so will you change the rules for me to make me interested?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 04:03 pm 
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CM Cheng wrote:
Hi Mak,

Yes, it needs to be installed on the vane and use wireless link to report the data.

Can you help to vacuum bag the vane?


Sure !

How are you going to change battery?
Be careful with the placement of the ic, it seems to work only horizontally.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 04:41 pm 
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Mak, why you are so irrational?
You got the champion last year with a rule doesn't mean this rule is the best rule! Why don't we be more open mind? If you are top pilot, you can also be a champion with a new rule!

My suggestion is to try to refine the rule to make the contest more interesting, it doesn't mean, in using a new rule you will be loosing out and we will be advantageous!

Let's me explain this more in details with examples for different rules, and please think about the pros and cons of this with a clear mind.

Old rule:
Keep 6 best races out of 7 to 12 races, or no discard for 1 to 6 races.

Case 1: we run only 6 races, so no discard. Actually, in practical situation, a pilot may unlucky not be able to attend one of these races due to personal schedule, although he may be able to attend other 6 races, however they are all cancelled anyway. So this is no good for him as he got only 5 useful scores.

Case 2: we run 12 races and discard 6 races. Obviously, the discard is too many, most of the pilots' scores will be lumped into the high side as 59xx points, their scores are so close that it will be meaningless to judge on their real abilities.

Extreme rule:
1 to 3 races held, no discard
4 to 12 races, only 1 discard
More races and less discard will test the durability of a good pilot, but as said it is no good for pilots with busy personal schedule.

Proposed rule:
1 to 3 races held, no discard
4 to 6 races held, 1 discard
7 to 9 races held, 2 discards
10 to 12 races held, 3 discards
Actually, the rule is somewhere between the old rule and the extreme rule above

Case 1: we run only 6 races, there will be 1 discard. Pilot who may not be able to attend all 6 races but attend 5 races can still score good mark, right?

Case 2: we run 12 races and discard only 3 races, that is the real beauty, because, this ratio can really test the ability of a pilot, if he is good he can get very good scores for all 9 races instead of just 6 in the old system.


Can you see the advantages of the proposed rule?
The only disadvantage I can see is a very minor increase in complexity for computing the ranking table. It won’t affect the performance of a good or poor pilot, if you are good, you are good.


Life is arguing and making compromises, I am a bit fed up with arguing all the times, but that's life, take it or leave it, your choice!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 05:25 pm 

Joined: 02 Aug 2004 11:34 am
Posts: 309
As the 1st race will be held on coming Sunday, it is better to fix which approach on discard be used before the new league starts.
May pilots who will join or intend to join the league this year show their preference :
1) follow the incremental discard with the arrangement as Stanley proposed OR
2) follow the simple approach as Mak mentioned - count for the best 6 races OR
3) Any other options, please state.

Once finalized, we've to stick to it for the league this year.
Or we can defer this finalization till the 2nd or the 3rd race since at least three races must be counted no matter for Option 1) or 2).

Pilots, please voice out, especially those will join the league but will be absent in the first 3 races.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 06:51 pm 
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Stanley wrote:
Mak, why you are so irrational?


What ! you call me IRRATIONAL :shock:


Stanley,

I understand you have been in a lot of argument with many people over HKRCSS issues, and you are in a less than good mode.

However, this is just an exchange of ideas.
Don't start a flame in this lovely forum.

I know you are rising the issue in good will, trying to make things better. I'm doing exactly the same thing too.

You are not saying, I believe the old rule is more advantageous to myself ?
Come on ! You should know me better that that. Am I such a silly man in your mind? :cry:

What I want is to keep things simple. and that's all.
so, I'll vote for the old rule.

However, as I said before. Whatever the rule will be. I'm happy to go with it.


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PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 07:38 pm 
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Hi Mak, may be I am irrational too, ok! Perhaps, I misunderstood your writing a bit, then sorry.

OK, let me response to your previous message.

Quote:
You said in your message: When a pilot get 6000 points, the others will have no chance of winning.
It sounds like you want to adjust the rules to make the guy with 6000 points to loss out in the race, hence creating a chance for the others to win.


As a computer scientist, my logic of thinking is straight. I did not propose to change the rule during race, how come we can create a chance for others to win over the 6000 points guy? In fact this top guy can get more 1000 later! Your logic is simply not right.
My suggestion is to create a rule such that everybody can compete to the last instead of knowing the winner too earlier making the game a bit boring in the later state.

Quote:
I can't imagine when "劉祥" runs too fast on the track, and the other runners can't catch up with him. The organizer would have changed the rule, so that the others have a chance to win ?


Again, we do not change the rule in the middle, this statement is false! In fact if劉祥" runs fast in 6 rounds, he should also run fast in 12 rounds, why other have a better chance to win? The logic is wrong!

Quote:
Anyway, I can't see the results would have changed unless less discards were inforced, (and there must be more successful races in that year)


This is even strange! Point out if I misunderstood this. My proposal would have less discard in the high end (12 races), but more discard in the low side (4 races), then your statement is exactly what this proposal aims!

Quote:
This is exactly opposit to BigYeung's idea, where he wants more discards to make sure low attendance rate to not affect the results.


Yes, the proposal caters for this in the low side, but as I said, we should have a more challenging/interesting system in the high side.

Quote:
Stanley,
We cannot guarantee all pilots have a chance to win in the league on every race.


Of course! What is the logic? Changing the rule before the league start would not guarantee this? I can’t see the logic!

Quote:
If you can adjust the rules for the first few pilots, then how about those at the end of the score sheet ?


The proposed rule is for all pilots, nothing to do with their capabilities. Do you mean the proposed rule is suitable for top pilots not for those in the lower end? I can’t see the logic either.

Quote:
I agree with BigYeung in trying to make the race more interesting, but I don't think it should affect the selection of top pilots.


Why the proposed rule can alter the selection of the top pilots, as far as I know, it is fair to everybody!

Quote:
How about adding an "Advancement Award" for the pilot who jump up the most on the score sheet ?


Yes, it can be done in the proposed rule, but may not be possible in the old rule, why not then? Is it your logic to think this is incorrect?


I understand a simple system is better, but I think a better system is even better!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2008 09:16 pm 
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Quote:
As a computer scientist, my logic of thinking is straight. I did not propose to change the rule during race, how come we can create a chance for others to win over the 6000 points guy? In fact this top guy can get more 1000 later! Your logic is simply not right.


As a computer professional, my logic is not as straight as yours.
Especially after reading your messages saying:

Quote:
For example, you see Mak got five 1000 points and one 995 points with a total of 5,995 points, there is almost no way we can catch up even 12 races were held.

And
Quote:
1. If a guy who has achieved six 1000 points in the first 6 races, he will definitely be a winner even though there are still 6 races to hold. Other pilots may loose the interest to fight back.


In the message, you show a strong will in trying to move people up by change of rule.
However, looking at league 2007s results. Even if there are 3 more races to fly with your new rules.
I still cannot see much chance for the others to win!

I can't help myself to start thinking: What is in Stanley's mind?
If this new rule cannot change the results, and Stanley wants the runner-ups to be able to catch up, then what else is under his hat!

Whatever is in your mind, I strongly disagreed with changing rules, just because you want one player to catch up with another.
This attitude itself is not right. Even if I was in the runner up position myself.

I believe in playing a fair game by practicing oneself, in order to do well under the games rule, rather than changing the rules to fit someone (either during or before the race).


About BigYeung's and Stanley's new rule:
I'm not that against the new rules itself. It's just a little complicated.
If that's the rule, it's OK for me. It's just not as good as the old and simple one.

Be realistic.
9 out of 12? :?
Do you really believe we can have 12 races in a year?
I think 9 races a year is about what we can get!
:wink:


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